How much APR on HBD savings?
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We all suffer from low Hive prices and there are several reasons for them, the crypto markets in general, the DHF, the HBD, all contribute and for some things we have no influence. However, since we are running a hive witness we have actually the power to send a message through the APR rate that we signal on HBD savings. What should we do? Should we keep the 15% that we show at the moment? Or shall we decrease it?
What rate for HBD savings should we signal with the Liotes Witness? 15%, 10%, 7%, 5% or 0%?
Please leave your answer as a comment below this post.
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Frankly, I don't care !LOLZ
Why? Because I unstaked all my $HBD savings and will try to sell it. How and to what, I don't know yet. It is panful to see how un-liquid $HBD is.
I sincerely wish all the best to all who have high numbers in $HBD savings and will try to sell it one fine day. Good luck!
Ps: my meager move won't influence global $HIVE/$HBD economy yet my conscience is clear from now on !LOLZ
!BEER
I had 15'ooo but sold it all 3 months ago...
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Thank you
!BEER
If HBD is pegged to a dollar I don't see why it need to have an APR 3x the dollar APR... It should be dolar APR + Bonus of risk for being a crypto dollar.
That's an interesting perspective. It's true that it's difficul to argument for 15% with this view...
Thanks. Also if you try to find any other stable, the APRs are much lower... We are considering a huge risk to have this return.
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I think at this point the only reasonable level would 5%, even with that it will be increasing debt but not nearly as quickly. Once that 30% debt level is hit things will get really ugly if HBD loses it's peg...
A lot of people seem not to realise that the haircut is there to protect hive by reducing the HBD supply. The problem is that the interests are something completely a part and with low hive prices, each hbd paid as interests is making things worse and pushes towards the haircut.
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Tbh, as much as anyone would like to lower it to <10%, it would provide no compelling case to anyone looking for such yields.
Just take MSTR's lineup of preferred stocks, STRK, STRF, STRD, and STRC. They offer an APR of 8-12%, have good liquidity, and are traded worldwide in the stock exchange.
Why would anyone want to put their money into a much lesser known and significantly smaller pool like HIVE? More risk, less rewards. It's dead from the get go.
There is absolutely no use case for high apr on hbd other than to make hbd holders happy and in the end this pushes towards the haircut and the same hbd holder would be the ones paying the price once the haircut is reached...
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Not too sure of the implications actually - I am sure there are trade offs, otherwise, the higher the better right? I kinda miss the 20% APR days, but the current 15% is fine. I think status quo is fine, or psychologically, a minimum of 10% (double digit).
Every hbd that is paid through interests is basically 15 more hive in circulation and one more step towards the haircut. The hive blockchain is programmed to reduce HBD supply when prices drop but the interests are not comprehended in that and they make things worse for hive prices.
I see, then actually it doesn't make any difference. Maybe the price of Hive will do better if HBD APR is 0% since there is lesser supply?
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Thanks!
I don't believe this change will affect Hive's value, so I would leave it as is.
In any case, I am not in a position to decide anything about this. Will the witnesses agree, or will each have their own opinion, and the median of those twenty will decide?
I'm not sure that this is true because every HBD printed with interests, increases the hive supply with 15 hive. This pushes things closer and closer to the haircut and in the end this could be much worse for hbd holders than lower apr.
Well, I don't know. I wanted to say that other, external factors are more important. Anyway, the entire crypto market has collapsed.
The fact that we are also harming ourselves here is another story, I think.
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I remember when we were all urged to goto Twitter from Dan and Starkerz and combat people's tweets about 20% being unsustainable etc.
From the outside it looked a ridiculously high APR and smacked of a PONZI.
I would put it at 5. I just hope it stays at peg for those savers.
Hive' "Luna" Guard: Sending Hive outbound... š
With the current dynamics, I believe that we might lose peg and this is much worse than having lower apr on HBD in my opinion...
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I think the APR should be decent, but I don't think it is sustainable at the current Hive price. So I am leaning more towards 10% as the right number.
The APR on HBD interests is something that is created through devaluating hive. Every HBD that is printed, represents 15 hive that are added to the circulation and dillute hive. With offer and demand, this simply increases the offer of hive without doing anything to the demand. The result is it helps to decrease hive prices but there will come a point where the low hive prices will have a direct impact on hbd because if the haircut is reached, hbd will loose dollar parity... So even HBD holders should be interested in having a sustainable balance.
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At the end of last year I published this blog post about how HBD seemed to be pulling back from getting a "haircut" - and included an explanation of what the "haircut" is:
https://hive.blog/alive/@hirohurl/hbd-back-from-the-brink-of-a-haircut
So far this year, however, the debt-ratio has kept on rising to new highs and is getting closer and closer to the 30% haircut trigger. The screenshot shows the current situation:
It's worth listening to @starkerz to understand why this is bad:
Given all that, I think the interest rate ought to be lowered to 10% for now.
However, one objection to dropping the interest rate when the price of Hive is low is that it could cause investors to sell and leave Hive altogether instead of selling HBD to buy cheap HIVE, thereby driving the price of HIVE even lower.
Of course, even cheaper HIVE would be a compelling buying opportunity. Also, if the haircut kicks in, HBD investors won't be getting any interest payments at all.
!PIMP
!BBH
!ALIVE
They removed the "haircut" a couple of forks back. As it is now, the "equity" Hive, is less than the HBD "debt"...
My calculation the Market Cap of Hive is 9.725M USD - HBD not in DAO = 10.4M USD... Hive/HBD in the DAO represents over 72% of the Hive supply... if they burnt it all, it would be like taking a chain away from around the neck of Hive... but still the debt is HUGE compared to the true market cap..
I talked about this to several people at Hive Fest and everybody discussed the situation as if the haircut rule still existed. If there is no haircut then the situation is worse than I realized. What's to stop us going the way of Terra now?
!PIMP
!BBH
!ALIVE
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What I see as a problem with low hive prices is that every HBD printed through interests adds 15 hive to the circulation without bringing any use case other than adding a return for people holding hbd in savings. At the same time, this adds pressure towards the haircut that once it's reached the parity will drop. this will be much worse than lower APR I believe.
If the hard haircut kicks in, what are the potential negative impacts on 2nd tier tokens such as LEN, CTPSB etc, and can anything be done to mitigate those impacts?
!PIMP
!BBH
!ALIVE
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i have mine at 10% other people say it should be a lot higher again to atract people but i'm not an economist i'm just a witness and if i only get 2 % on my savings at the bank it's hard to belive that 15% is a normal thing for hive HBD .
There are not many arguments that support such high APR on HBD, especially when hive prices are falling. 1 HBD printed through interests represents 15 hive printed out of thin air and dilluting all the other hive in circulation...
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Good to see you both together! š
I would like to see all HBD burnt, but i guess 5% would be the sensible solution for now.
Printing HBD is double bad at the moment. It increased the Hive supply much more with lower hive prices and contributes to get closer to the haircut...
Can you give a hard number when the haircut kicks in?
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It's fine as it is. What we need is a better APR for staking HIVE so people are less likely to dump it.
Thanks for your feed-back!
You're welcome š
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15% would be ok IMO, the pressure is coming because other more important things as the payments for proposals
Proposals paiments are the biggest HBD printers but HBD interests are also contributing.
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Hmm I think it worth stay at the current point, and wait till May or June and if nothing will go in right way you can move to 12%
The thing is waiting and doing nothing is what everybody is doing and then people are complaining about hive prices. Both are linked directly together. Interests on HBD are new Hive tokens minted out of nowhere that reduce the value of the existing ones.
I saw that some witnesses already moved ratio to numbers lower than 15%.But how often it worth to change percentage of interests I can't to say coz finances not my game area. But with your thoughts I agree.
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How great to see you two together in the video!!
It was juicy to get 20% APR for HBD, even 15% is. However, offering such a high profitability does not help the staked HIVE look attractive. I think that the APR of the staked HIVE should always be at least twice the APR of the HBD. I would like 7% better.
What we have to keep in mind is that the interests on HBD are printed out of thin air. It means that new tokens are just minted to pay these interests and it's printed in HBD, which, when exchanged to hive represent a lot of hive that is added to the mix and devaluating all the hive tokens in existence...
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To save hive go down, at least try to save. Not sure if it will make such an impact...
Reducing the APR is mainly a way to limit the supply increase that is generated through HBD APR.
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15% sounds like a good number. Hopefully we can have it in sustainable manner
The APR increases the hive in circulation in an inorganic manner and in the long run it weighs on hive prices.
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With the haircut in mind.. the interest rate impacts debt ratio (my understanding). To support the process, signaling a lower rate would be best. Maybe 10% to start... If debt ratio continues upward, lower rate signal more...
Exactly, interests add more HBD in circulation and their weight helps not only the haircut to get closer, it also dillutes hive circulation.
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It was good to see you both in the video.
I was happy when the rate was 20%. But I have to admit I don't really understand the economics of HBD.
Anyway, I now swap HBD for CTPSB when I reach the minimum value of 1 HIVE set by Keychain.
!BBH
APR on savings is a way to print Hive indirectly that is in addition to the natural supply. This increases the tokens in circulation and is therefore bad for Hive prices.
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In the current situation, I think it would be prudent to lower the APR to 12 or 10%.
thanks for your suggestion!
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leave it at 15% for now.
Wait for 3 to 6 more months and depending on the situation dtop to 12%
that's just my thought.
!BBH
!ALIVE
If hive prices drop a bit more and it could lead to the haircut where HBD would lose parity to HBD. What if HBD drops to 0.60 $? I think that waiting is not the best solution...
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15% sounds like a good number. :)
It's a big number but it's difficult to justify it when hive prices are dropping.
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I am not so sure as I don't know the detailed on how much is the great apr for HBD, btu for me since I want to keep the HBD in my account, no matter how much it is, it is still a win for me though. ;)
!LOLZ !PIZZA
It's a good way to keep your value as long as there is no haircut ...
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I've always advocated for a high APR for HBD savings precisely to attract other people, but at the moment I think we need to make tough cuts, so lowering it to 5 or 8% might be the answer
Thanks for your assessment :-)
I am happy to be able to contribute in some way
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it depends on your goal. if it is to save hive, it must below 10% APR or HP total growth.
But if it is to save your witness vote, put it on 20% or 15%, higher better.
Yes, not sure what is the best way to go....
hahaha, follow the guts... or compromised on the middle value 10-15%
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I think it's important to consider the impact the APR has on HBD savings, both for users and the Hive ecosystem.
Maintaining 15% could be attractive to savers, but we also need to assess whether this rate is sustainable in the long term.
Reducing it to a level such as 10% or 7% could better balance incentives and sustainability.
!ALIVE
!BBH
!WINE
The APR on hive savings is not really sustainable because it is printing hive out of thin air in the form of HBD that can be converted. This increases the supply without any real use case other than to increase the return for holding hbd in savings.
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I used to prefer a higher APR, but now, I wouldn't wish to save if it means more pressure on HBD or HIVE.āŗļø
Every HBD printed is basically 15 Hive printed out of thin air at the moment. This increases the supply and devaluates all the existing hive. That's the reason why we think that lower HBD would be better for the ecosystem.
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!ALIVE !LOLZ !BBH !HEARTBEAT
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Nice to see both of you today! :)
Drop it to 10%... Re-evaluate in 6 months.
Thanks for the suggestion. 10% may be a good compromise.
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