A Chasm Too Wide?
I already said this in my post last week, but I really don't like to talk about politics that much. Historically, it has always been one of those topics that should be approached gingerly. Along with religion, there are just too many opinions on both sides. It generally leads to nothing but an argument.
As much as I tried to avoid it, the recent US election made it nearly impossible. I think we all know the outcome by now, and since that time, I have been having some discussions on other outlets trying to wrap my head around everything. It brought to light some interesting truths that I felt I needed to share in my blog.
So I apologize in advance. I know this is a touchy subject, and we are probably all sick of it by now, but I think some of these conversations you will find interesting. I know I did.
First off, I'm a firm believer that there is a severe lack of empathy in the world today. I think if people would just stop and put themselves in the other person's shoes, we wouldn't have nearly as many problems as we do today. Generally, that belief usually puts me on the "Left" (liberal,democrat) side of things.
I also believe that people should work hard if they want to get ahead in life. I don't think everyone deserves a hand out. I also think shoring up our borders and paying a little more attention to what is going on in the US instead of out in the world isn't a bad thing. Perhaps I am a bit more moderate than people think.
RFK Jr. is a bit bat crap crazy (my opinion), but if he can clean up the US food supply like he says he can, that might not be such a bad thing... Hopefully you get the point.
All that being said, I think Trump is a pretty vile human being. Obviously, some of his policies are interesting (like cryptocurrency), but in general, it baffles me that people thought it was a good idea to vote for him. Don't get me wrong, we haven't been given a lot of good options in the past decade or two, but wow.
So I decided to jump onto one of my Telegram channels where I know a lot of the people lean to the right (conservative, republican), and I decided to bite the bullet and ask some questions.
This is how I started things off:
bozz, [11/8/2024 7:23 AM]
I'm willing to entertain the idea that some of the alleged stuff he did was just spinning by the MSM. I'm also willing to throw aside the Jan 6th stuff and the sexual assault stuff.
bozz, [11/8/2024 7:24 AM]
But he still said some pretty disparaging things about the military, women, foreigners, people with special needs, and several others. It's on the record, he said it and he doesn't deny any of it.
bozz, [11/8/2024 7:24 AM]
Does that not bug you?
bozz, [11/8/2024 7:25 AM]
Are you just willing to overlook it? Or do you feel it was all made up even though he said it?"
I then followed up by asking if they felt his character had no bearing on his ability as a leader. I added that as a guy with a sister, a husband an an uncle to nieces I have a problem with the message that sends and that is what I have been struggling with the most.
The key response I got (and I have seen this in other forums as well) is this:
Actions speak louder than words
They don't really care about any of the things he said, they just care about what he does (did...).
They immediately jumped to the subject of Trans people which seems to be the knee jerk reaction of these sorts lately. That's the thing that they are most concerned about. I view this two ways, either the democrats want them to be focused on that while they are working on something else, or the republicans have radicalized the subject enough that everyone thinks it's a bigger issue than it is.
One of the people even suggested that schools are indoctrinating kids to be trans. I work in a public school. I might not be able to debate with them on political foreign policy, but I know the school system. It's just not happening. It might have happened in one location and it got a lot of press, but it's the exception, not the norm.
Then another one mentioned the whole Israel/Palestine thing. That's a whole other can of worms. I suggested some alternative facts just to play devils advocate, but that only seemed to enrage them.
Then they went back to Epstein.
Who I pointed out Trump was quite close with. You don't think his name is going to be on that list? Or more likely conveniently stripped from it before it hits the public?
I'd like to point out, that I was pretty cordial during this whole exchange. I fully understand the Mainstream Media spins things. I know not everything we see is fact, I also know that our leaders aren't infalible. As I said, I was also honestly and earnestly trying to understand the other point of view.
It's that whole empathy thing I was talking about.
Finally, I decided to cut to the chase and I asked this question:
bozz, [11/8/2024 7:50 AM]
Okay, maybe this is a better question. What would Trump have to do for you to be like holy shit, we might have made a mistake here.
I had one reasonable fellow who said that if he didn't appoint the people he said he would or follow through on the policy he promised, he might second guess his decision.
Another responded with this:
They then determined that my opinions were based on hurt feelings and me believing too much of the MSM and that I was possibly "fixable".
Okay, for the sake of your time, I'll start wrapping this up.
There was a bit more discussion, but none of it was really relevant and it went about the way you would expect.
One of the first things I really noticed was how they tended to talk down to me. I will admit, I may not know as much about the subject as them, but I'm a man in his late 40's. Being talked to like I am a child by someone probably younger than me is a bit off putting and doesn't help you get your point across.
Second, It seems that as much as they like to blame the MSM for spreading false information, when confronted with something that challenges their beliefs, they immediately dismiss it without even considering it. I know this is just one small group of people, but I have seen it happen across the board on social media lately.
Finally, the last thing I took from this conversation was that at this point the chasm just feels too wide for either side to ever agree on anything.
My hope is that even if the republicans control all three branches of government, there are enough moderate people in office who don't agree with Trump that those people along with some of the democrats will be able to work together to actually effect some positive change in our country.
As for the citizens... Unlike myself, I don't see people willing or able to ever find that common ground.
Sports Talk Social - @bozz.sports
I hope things don't get too bad for you. Politics can be divisive, but people ought to agree that they will disagree on some things. I tend to think that 'woke' is a form of empathy and that is definitely lacking in some. This who fuss over trans people is blowing up something that affects a tiny number of people. Nobody is going to transition just so they can win at some sport, but they may still want to participate in some way and nobody is forcing this on kids. Gay and trans kids can have a really tough time and some people are using them as an excuse for more discrimination.
I find it hard to talk about Trump as the guy is more about personal grievances and ego than policies. Big business and extremists will exploit him for their own gain. He has hijacked the Republican party and I was surprised that more from that side did not totally reject him.
We're in for more years of chaos.
I agree with you on many of those points. As I said to someone else. I am a white male, so I have little doubt any of this will be too impactful for me. I care about the people it will impact though. Sadly, I think I came away from this experiment with more questions than I had when I went in.
Did you ever try talking to someone about religion? Bad idea. Same thing seems to be true for Trump. Somehow people have a religions dedication to this man. They are emotionally invested in him. It is truly like a cult. I think media saturation on the right, which is a large part of media, has accomplished this. That includes Twitter, which Musk has quite strongly slanted toward Trump. Here is a map from 2018 of right-wing Sinclair-owned stations:. I believe their media outlets have expanded since then. There is also the Murdoch empire, which now includes print, TV and radio.
This is not an exhaustive list of the right-wing media, which pumps non-stop Trump propaganda to its audience.
Have you ever watched a FOX show? I have. I try to open my mind and understand different points of view. I've watched (little bits because it's painful) The Five, the most watched show on cable. You work in a school, so when I tell you the level of discourse is on par with a bunch of junior high school boys making fun of everyone else, then you get the idea. They are always laughing at people. They are Trump lite. They are crude, rude and cruel. Their attraction is purely emotional.They make the viewer feel like it's a social group and the viewer is on the inside. The viewer 'belongs'. When The Five laughs at someone, it's always somebody else.
You can't really discuss anything with that group, or the people who are attracted to it, because their commitment is emotional and they won't let go of that sense tht they belong.
Long comment....sorry. We are in the throws of a potential national disaster. Let's hope, as you say, there are enough courageous people in government, people who regard themselves as Republican, who are willing to stop this train wreck.
I think one of the other key things that really stood out to me is many of the people I have talked to only seem to be concerned about the short term. They are so focused on the here and now that they aren't seeing the larger picture and the damage all of this is going to potentially do. I guess that is about on par with the rhetoric. I will say, despite the things I mentioned above, my conversation with those folks was probably one of the most civil I have seen on social media concerning this topic as of late.
You know I'm with you, buddy.
There is an old story. If you have a room of 10 people, 8 of those people are going to be just great. Friendly, polite, happy to live and let live, and so on. But two of those people are going to want to control the group. How do they do that? By convincing 6 of the other people that two of them are slime and are trying to subvert the others. And that's they get power.
For the republicans right now, those two are trans (or more broadly LGBTQ) and immigrants.
Yeah, that is a very good point. My wife was showing me a video the other day and I have heard murmurs of it in the past that white people are afraid of becoming the minority. In the grand scheme of things, I think there are bigger things we should be concerned about.
Certainly you could have expected that to happen. I would have been surprised if anyone actually had been calm and informative in their responses. One of the benefits of living overseas for about the last 20 years is that unless we go out and dig for it, politics has absolutely no bearing on our day-to-day lives and this is something I am really grateful for. I have found that left or right, the people that do bring it up in public overseas where I have lived tend to be the loudest and most uninformed people you can imagine that are doing the shouting. I have had to tell my lefty and my righty friends to STFU and to stop ruining the ambiance of our shitty dive bar that we were in. They might wake up the guy that is passed out in his own vomit and we can't have that.
I stay completely out of it because I feel as though people get WAY too emotionally attached to these things. Imagine your hardcore political friends and what they could accomplish if they spent that time on literally anything else. That's how I look at it.
I knew you were a progressive and you are handling it a lot better than some of the stuff I see on 9gag. There are a lot of mental health problems in the world, that is for sure.
It's just a hot mess over here. I think people are so short sighted that they aren't able to see the big picture. One thing that all of this has really made clear is just how much underlying hate there still is in the country. I would have thought we had moved past it by now, but when people are given a free pass to say and do whatever they want, the truth really starts to come out. I wish things were different here and people could just live their lives and have their opinions without it becoming a virtual war.
well maybe the right step for you is to not get engaged in it as far as online is concerned at least with people that you know. I know you peek at my meme dumps every now and then and I always preface those with how I left mainstream social media largely because of political infighting between people that I know have been friends for decades that are willing to toss all that out because of a difference of opinion that ultimately doesn't affect either of their lives. I think social media for the most part is extremely toxic and see no net benefit to them other than finding out the events that are going on in your area on a weekend or something like that.
I'm suspect you already feel this way so don't think I am being patronizing because I am not.
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I think you have to consider the economy above everything else and then the open borders as the next big thing. If he can fix this then everything else is a bonus. know some mentioned his firing of is staff last time around ad he explained that recently. His first time around he was guided and told who to appoint and only when he saw they were not in it for the country, but benefitting corporations or individuals he fired them. I am no fan of is, but I am no fan of Harris either and do think Trump was the best of the worst and he actually may turn out really good for everyone. Time will tell on this and he has given people 2 years (RFK) to show factual evidence that things have been changed for the better.
Assuming you can believe any of that. See, that's the problem. Just as they think everything from the left is lies, you can never be sure how much is true from the right either. It's a mire of crap coming at you from all sides!
Yes that too and why you just never know. Have you ever met an honest politician because I have not. I must say our elections are totally different here and as a minority group we have to stick together otherwise we get properly screwed. That is the way it is I am afraid and why having a joint party ruling the country is a win win right now.
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Shouldn’t we be voting for the polices over the generally flawed “leaders”. Just my bird’s eye view from Canada.
In a perfect world politicians wouldn't let personal biases drive their policies, but we already know that isn't the case with Trump. How many people did he fire during his last administration?
True. A revolving door comes to mind.
"I really don't like to talk about politics that much. It generally leads to nothing but an argument." totally true totally agree, i think fixing problems accumulated since decades won't b easy regardless of who the president is, i think the right way is to support the right issues regardless what party u follow "like fighting drugs "more republican", climate change "more democratic", poverty "more democratic", debt "more republican" and so on, at the end i don't think the 2 party system is the best system. have a good day
I totally agree with you there. We need some viable options outside of the two party system. I'd love to see a nice independent win and gain some traction. I understand what you are saying about supporting the right issue, but I have a problem who pick a candidate based solely on a single issue. It feels a bit short sighted to me.
A great post and I think we think alike on so many of the points you raised
Totally agree more empathy is needed
The chasm is indeed very wide and sadly so many at either end of the spectrum are only willing to view things that agree with their opinion and are not open to read all sides of an issue
As for the talking down to people sadly I am seeing that almost being the norm especially online where I guess people feel as sense of anonymity
I will stop there
Yeah, it has gotten really bad. I'm not saying one side or the other is wrong, but I was at least willing to try to see the other point of view and while I can appreciate some of it, most of it just isn't landing with me.
Well I was trying to be diplomatic I do feel one side is shall a say harsher and we both know what side i mean
its not landing with you because a lot of it makes no sense
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In the end, like you I just want the politicians to get along and get something done that is beneficial to all of us. The two party system is creating the chasm you speak of and it's extremely unhealthy. It's fine for everyone to have their own viewpoint and that is not only their right it should be respected even if you don't agree with them. It used to be that when it came down to it they worked together to better the country, now there's just so much hate on both sides...
I really almost don't recognize the country I grew up in, it's a mess. And you're right, our choices in politicians over the last couple decades have pretty much sucked. I didn't spend twenty years in the military active duty and reserves to watch the whole country implode... Maybe next time around there will be someone much more competent, at least I hope.
I think people need to step outside their boxes and start looking at alternative candidates. I'm not saying Perot should have won back in the day, but we haven't had a third party precedent for a while now. We need someone to break the ice again.
I couldn't agree more. A strong third option would be good for this country. Let's cross our fingers!
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