The Simple Solution to Hive's Biggest Problems - Removing L1 Content Rewards Completely
As anyone who's been following me knows, the last couple months have marked the end of my more than 5 years dedicated to growing Hive/Steem, building community here, and walking hundreds of people through this overly complex system.
You can scroll down a bit to see my last handful of posts, covering various facets of this, and showing the progression of the conversation (over 1000 comments on just a few posts.)
After digging through all the various conversations about these issues of centralized stake, censorship of opposing opinions by those with the stake, and the fact that the ninja mine was kept by the whales... It has become quite clear that Hive is doomed to be a terrible social media platform, run by a couple of tyrants.
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There's a solution, that most every side seems to agree upon...
We need to remove L1 Hive rewards from content completely.
No more author rewards, no more curation rewards.
This cuts the inflation rate significantly (increasing the value of Hive)
This puts all content curation onto the L2 projects - where communities can have their own guidelines and such - and creating more value for those L2 tokens
This would make Hive the free speech platform it claims to be, as there would no longer be an L1 means to censor content.
This makes Hive much more appealing to investors, developers, and content creators.
The whales downvote instead of conversing
Here is the last comment I made, in response to blocktrades (by far the largest stakeholder on Hive, and the top witness, who upvotes spam comments for thousands of dollars per day) - Of course, nobody responded to the comment, except to downvote it... as usual.
You characterize this post and his comments as just dissent opinions, but they and his previous post on the same topic are mostly focused as an attack on the reputation of the voters for these comments and on Hive in general. He is clearly attacking the chain and essentially accusing it of being worthless.
Here are my posts, in TLDR form, since I started down this path:
- Curangel/Azircon is systematically nuking accounts for political reasons. (as are others)
- A post of libel that acidyo published about me in the comments of the previous post - with a point by point rebuttal.
- How this malicious & systematic downvoting is just one symptom of the built-in centralizaion on Hive.
- A Get-Out-The-Vote Post, including catching people up on the things covered in the previous posts, and various communications.
- A breakdown of all the tweaks that seem most-needed to create a version of Hive/Steem that better serves a lot of purposes for the Freedom Movement
- Showing the hypocrisy of folks giving $300-600 up-votes to 1-sentence comments, while zeroing out journalists & content creators making $50-150 for their work, in the name of "defending the rewards pool" or "over-rewarded content"
- Digging into the actual math of the point I covered in the previous post.
You whales who've never read or watched my content and didn't know who I was until I started calling out this activity can pretend that I'm just some Hive hater - but the last half of a decade shows how ridiculous that is.
If I didn't care about Hive or wanted to damage it, I would be shit-posting about Hive on my Odysee channel, on Flote, etc. Instead, I'm here, still spending my time, doing research, being slandered and verbally assaulted by multi-millionaires, and trying to shake things up enough that maybe changes happen.
I've accepted that means that I probably won't ever earn posting rewards on Hive again - and it's been freeing to release the attachment that I had to this place.
Removing the l1 rewards gets talked about often, I have mixed feelings about it. While I can understand the idea, I personally think it would be devastating to the hive price at this point
However, one way to ensure your own content is valuable despite Hive rewards is to join a community and worry less about Hive rewards and more about the community rewards.
If all of you involved in the battle just continued to post and bought into your own autonomous community rewards, it would just become a non issue. If the community was growing eventually the rewards police can't keep up downvotes and the downvotes would matter less as the community token would become more important anyway.
The hyperbolic battle, name calling and having the same exact conversation for 5.5 years is tedious. Make your own community and invest in it. Don't worry about the Hive rewards and the problem solves it's self.
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I could see it being largely negative for the price in the short run (which means an opportunity for more decentralization of stake - or more centralization - depending on who buys and who sells), mostly because Hive's only real value right now is voting, once you get past the amount needed for RCs.
It seems like this would definitely increase the value of Hive in the long run, simply by making it not such an inflationary token.
Most new users, activity, and investment on Hive are all coming Splinterlands, DeFi, NFTs, and L2 communities anyway.
Why would I keep adding value to a platform that has proven itself to not live up to its own claimed values, much less my own standards. I've ONLY used blockchain platforms for years, because I don't support centralization, censorship, or statists.
The thing that has changed is that I stopped being able to sustain the illusion that Hive was different. I just kept "waiting for the stake to decentralize" and putting up with the BS claims of "it's their stake" (same excuse could be used for Zuck's censorship)
But the community hasn't been growing, it's been stagnant or shrinking, since 2017.
Most everyone who tried Steem/Hive along the way has left and won't come back.
Most who've heard of it but haven't joined won't ever - either because it's such an insane learning curve, or because they know of its history (from literally day 0) of centralized BS.
Most have never heard of it. And this isn't going to change... Plus those who do hear of it just end up in those 2 categories above...
I agree, and that (the fact that nothing has changed) is exactly why I can't support Hive.
Already done plenty of that.
That's not the problem solving itself - that's just choosing to ignore centralization, censorship, slander & libel by the people running things.
Just because it's possible to minimize the impact that Hive's inherent problems (combined with the behavior of pro-violence advocates holding stake) can have on you personally (like declining rewards as I did on this post), doesn't mean that the problem gets any smaller, much less goes away.
The simplest way for me to put this is that I wouldn't put out content for Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or any of those others - even if they paid me, because they go so totally against my principles.
As much as the mythology (that I foolishly believed) says otherwise, the same is true of Hive.
The ninja-mine being kept as their own private piggy bank should have been the last straw, but the community was SO active then that it sucked me in.
I'm not going to respond to each point.
In the end knowing the centralization and focus of the large stakeholders each user has to make a decision of whether or not to participate and if their engagement here brings some value to them whether it is monetary or otherwise.
As I like to say, you know it's DPOS and who the stakeholders are, analyze that and invest accordingly.
"Most everyone who tried Steem/Hive along the way has left and won't come back"
Fully agree - 90% of my friends on Steemit or Hive over the past 5 1/2 years have quit in disgust.
Not entirely - if everything you post (including comments) is nuked, your rep goes down. The lower it gets, the closer it gets to a sub-zero blocked out account - I already have two of those so I know it happens!
I mostly curate from the Leo page, they can show what they want and ignore Rep if they like.
VYB for instance could just use their own calculations and have their site ignore rep.
But I hear ya, it's a hit and it can be frustrating I went through quite a phase of receiving it as well.
Posted Using LeoFinance Beta
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Um, no. Not all sides. Certainly not me.
Every time this “solution” gets brought up, I hate it more.
Posted Using LeoFinance Beta
What other solution is there to the handful of people who decide what users get zero'd out, what content is allowed on trending, and what spam comments are worth $1000+ each?
A fork offering the best solutions given throughout the many articles on this topic is the only way. One being 1 account 1 governance vote. The reason you'll get so much resistance to this idea is that layer one is what pays out the best.
I still would have the idea to implement two different reward pools, one for 'stakers' and one for real curators and authors.
I think if someone considers themselves purely as investor they should be able to just stake HIVE in order to earn interest but after this decision shouldn't (be able to) upvote (or downvote) posts anymore which anyway they didn't read at all.
However, the ones who would choose to be in the curator/author pool should have to do real curation work which would mean to seek, actually read, evaluate and manually upvote posts that they really like.
That wouldn't completely solve all problems (for example some whales might decide to go for the curator/author pool, even if staking would be more beneficial for these users with huge stakes), but as we are 'brainstorming' here I wanted to mention this idea.
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We'd have to find our own devs for that to happen. Under the current leadership it most certainly won't. On top of that those with the deciding stake will never allow it. It'll take another coming together of the little guy to an order of magnitude higher than what happened during the Justin Sun coup. I don't see it becoming reality, but it doesn't hurt to plant the seed as you've done here...
That's one of the main reasons I'm down in Mexico right now, to connect with a ton of crypto people, and see if I can get someone(s) interested in helping spin up the project.
There's been a lot of supportive energy, some people down to help fund, projects ready to launch/shift to the platform... but no backend devs yet.
The coolest thing (to me) about this, is that it's mostly people who've never heard of or used Hive (or stopped way back in steem days), and everyone is so down to make something where the principles are actually put first.
Nice, I can't wait to see what happens.
Six months ago I didn't think this was a good idea. Now I do. It's amazing the change in perspective when everything you do on a platform gets nuked!
Well I can see turning Hive into just a wallet when we have a truly decentralized second layer, soon thanks to @dlux correct me if I am mistaken but have talked to Hive Engine Devs and people working on Dlux's project who agree. As well as better transparency happen with our second layer ie How I lost half of my SPT curation and sps airdrop points when delegating My 1.2 spt to @spt-curate and told to kick rocks from HE Team. Got my full air drop points and curation back when undelegating.
Not sure who both sides are but I know a couple of PAL people who are associated with splinterlands that want to just turn Hive in to some liquidity rewards pool for some imagined 300% apr thing but who are the others?
Hive was deflationary for a short period of time but seems it now has a 7.5% inflation rate after upbit gained more liquid hive somehow from 60% to 70% of all liquid hive on the market. I am not seeing some massive devaluing of Hive due to large stake holders but rather consolidated liquid hive on upbit.
https://peakd.com/hive-167922/@dalz/exchanges-transfers-report-or-transfers-to-and-from-exchanges-by-date-and-accounts-sgaza
https://hive.blog/hive-133987/@penguinpablo/weekly-report-how-much-hive-is-stored-on-the-exchanges-december-8-2021
https://peakd.com/hive/@dalz.shorts/thinking-of-monthly-hive-inflation-and-supply-report
If you trust the second layer why wouldnt you lean in the second layer or just fork like you intend on doing anyways. In this argument you are making you are seeming spiteful without providing clearer stats. Do you have stats for the the users being flagged to 0? I have seen primarily just you, ura and the youtube celebrity link droppers who share their youtube videos mainly. Even then I am not really seeing Ura's posts to 0 surprisingly. Wouldnt we want to provide clearer stats for the # of users being downvoted to 0? It would appear that number would be less than 1%. I am in no way condoning the downvotes towards freespeech content or retaliatory flags but it does seem it is happening on a very small amount of users comparatively to the rest of the users on hive.
Ya, it seems between Hive-Engine, dlux, and SPK, there will be a strong, and more decentralized L2.
I don't trust L2 at all. Same reason I don't use any ETH L2s.
I'm not looking to fork Hive in any way that could be called a fork. Looking to create something with similar tech (maybe based on Hive's) but completely different ethics, incentives, and purpose. Not even remotely a "competitor" because they're nowhere near the same kind of platform.
I don't have any stats, but some folks off the top of my head: @krnel, @barge, @lucylin, @regenerette, @frankbacon, @frot, @logiczombie, @arabisouri, @ura-soul, and @jasonliberty as you mentioned, a dozen or more other folks that have popped up in the comments of my last posts, plus the other big name folks you mentioned like @joshsigurdson, @lukewearechange, @tlavagabond, @maxigan, @pressfortruth and so on.
Plus the many people who aren't account nuked - but nuked any time they make content exposing inter-generational organized crime.
I'm sure the people I just tagged can give a much longer list than I can.
Anyway, there's a LOT more problems here than just the one symptom of malicious down-voting, as you well know.
I just can't justify feeding the beast anymore - same reason I don't use banks, credit cards, Bitcoin, or Ripple.
Getting ready to run steempruner on both of my Hive accounts actually.
Contents censored, posts demonitized, reputation affected by a few whales including the top one based on political views, they explicitly told, even Zuck's committee of 'fact checkeers' couldn't remove links to such views anymore, apparently Hive whales can suppress.
https://hive.blog/informationwar/@arabisouri/a-couple-of-hive-whales-took-away-hives-worth-hundreds-of-dollars-from-me
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Have you looked at those accounts lately? Only frot is getting flagged to 0 that is making original content even then it seems he may have copy and pasted some time in the past and refuses to talk to hivewatchers. Press for truth yeah he is getting nailed for lazy copy and paste but even luke is killing it. Jason liberty yeah on the posts attacking the downvoters he gets flagged, which is somewhat expected. I am still not seeing this thing where all these people are getting flagged to 0. A lot of these people mentioned still make more than the average hivian.
Frank burned his bridge with me a long time ago dude is out of his freaking mind and has no respect for anyone not even people sticking up for him, in that case I deserved to be burned by him cause he is out of his mind. Logic edits same post over and over again while tagging LOTS of people and I have been trying to work with him to hopefully make his content a little more better than a edited post on repeat.
Well, if you find a community that is sustainable with food, water, shelter and has a reasonable system of governance not requiring energy exchange in the form of a currency; let me know I will be there in a new york min! I know a guy who is building one in Boise who needs @eco-alex's help. So I am not kidding. If you know somewhere where the water, food, shelter and governance is healthy and sustainable I will be there so fast! Until then Hive imo is a viable solution to supplement income so as to not have to get two jobs or work for a company like fiverr or amazon.
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I'm responding to Your response to a Gaslighter for the "Crew"....
WHAT A COMPLETELY FUCKING RETARD!
The block, if viewed by the right kind of researchers shows that a TINY fraction of the few thousand users on HIVE are in control of a NINJA MINED STAKE that should be ZEROed out before ANY OF THESES OTHER RIDICULOUS IDEAS GET SERVICED.
Great ideas! But if the Original Sin is never addressed, everything that comes after will be corrupted... like it is now.
Long story short Bruv, ever since meeting you in 2015 I knew you were a big deal...
My suggestion would be to fold up HIVE/STEEM for BLURT in 2022 with your Tribe.
Without a Downvote button OR a concentrated stake in the hands of PsychoDorks from Portugal, BLURT would give you a head start in gaining back what was lost over the years of Whale Wars.
Ultimately, BLURT will jump ahead of HIVE/STEEM in value but those other chains will not go away... Which is why I personally will be doing my part to just get a few whales in front of some respective Regulators in their country and get them known to their community better.
HIVE!Regards
Everything I post on Hive has been flagged to zero for months, and I also have a couple of alt accounts that have had the same treatment. Many of my friends have stopped using Hive because of the constant downvoting. As well as wiping my earnings it has also dropped my rep.
Yes, I seen that and have acknowledged it. You are being flagged to 0 on every post for sure and really only guy that ive seen being attacked so aggressively. I also see a spaminator flag on your content... Did you copy and paste once a long time a go without sourcing material and refused to go to Hivewatchers? I have told people to go to Hivewatchers to clear up such situations successfully in the past. I dont think in your situation that will work tho. @guiltyparties @hivewatchers what is the deal with frot? Seems he is one of the few people who is being flagged to 0.
I have been clear with many how I do not think flagging free speech is cool. It is the perspective of the downvoters that free speech shouldn't be monetized, I do not think that is cool and have been cancelled in real life for speaking truth to power. Losing a job for sticking up for people and standing up for their rights suck. But are you here to earn or to spread awareness? I think perhaps in your situation your content is not intended to earn but rather to send a message. I do think that 2nd layer solutions exists for what you are doing and to be honest from what I have seen a lot of people on hive do not care about anti science views and anti government views and want to avoid that conversation not to mention this platform isnt that popular or used by the masses. I have found myself isolated from many people and groups on Hive for my perspectives on my anti-science and anti-government views just like in real life. Heck, I have even found a large anti American bias towards Americans here where many discriminate against Americans for being American. So why even try to bark up a tree that wont get me anywhere? Just me though and I would rather work to find healthy solutions than to repeatedly pound my head against a tree on hive and real life.
I really would like to earn on Hive and if my objective here was to spread truth and awareness than the downvotes wouldnt matter since I would own my content and it wouldnt be deleted. I could easily SEO my content and make it available all across the internet. Heck, that is what the famous youtube celebs are doing here on Hive... Just cross posting their youtube videos here sending everyone to their web 2.0 platforms. I wish they used Threespeak instead and put more effort into utilizing the Hive platform where their content cant be removed.
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23 accounts currently on list comment/post farming. 23 isn't "a couple".
I don't know who in the "every side agrees on" I was able to vote on but I sure as hell don't want to remove author or curation rewards. What the hell is left for the average person? Even my decent (meager in some circles) stake of 19k would be something I wouldn't be able to grow. I and countless others would say fuck it and just leave.
The allure of a place like Hive is that a lot of different types of content can be rewarded. I know some doesn't and that's got a bunch of reasons behind it, I don't see the point in ruining something completely like that because a few people are upset.
You wouldn't have to "grow" your stake, if you weren't losing value every 3 seconds due to the massive inflation rate (to fund the rewards pool)
That's not how the whales feel. They are actively zero-ing out users, and if anyone speaks out, they bash on those people for "being only about rewards"
The only thing that would be ruined is the power of a couple people to decide the visibility and rewards of everyone else.
Nope. Not interested.
Every time I see this come up, I'm reminded of that kid in school that brought the football. All the kids are excited, enjoying the exact same playing field, playing by the exact same rules. But the kid who brought the football gets pissed because things aren't going his way. The quarterback doesn't pass him the ball even though he wants it. So he takes his ball and walks off the field. Ruins the fun for everyone.
Or other times I see this come up is when folks around here are more or less annoyed with the arguing. 'Reward disputes', whatever you want to call it. So it's noisy, they're sick of it, so they act like bad parents. One kid is pissed off about something, so the parent comes in and takes the toys away from all the kids. Now all the kids are upset because the parent didn't have the patience or know-how to settle the dispute.
Also, you're hinting at deplatforming me and converting my investment into something I have no use for. Forcing me to start from scratch. Forcing me to buy some unproven token. Forcing me to go work within the confines of some segregated community out there in the internet hardly anyone knows about. I didn't work for nearly six years just to have it all taken away.
These rumors of stripping the base layer, pulling the rug out, and fucking people; I'm not for it.
You say layer two is the answer and you don't need layer 1. So why not practice what you preach and embrace the solutions already in place? They made VYB a downvote free platform and what did you do Kenny? Powered the stake down handed to you, and now in the process of dumping it. You get handed an opportunity that helps solve your personal problems, something you even claim is the solution, but in practice, you piss on it.
And nearly all these second layer communities are barely staying afloat. Pull out the foundation and they come crashing down, too. And how do you even start up a new one with no base layer or foundation? From scratch? If it fails that failure is permanent. They have nothing to fall back on.
Haven't you ever played Jenga? Pick away at the foundation and what happens to everything built on top? It falls.
Nobody is looking at the entire picture when talking about stripping the base layer.
Interesting how your analogy revolves around one person expecting to play by different rules because he's got the "capital." The difference is that on Hive, there are a few people who have more power than 90% of the userbase, and the top 20 (decided by that stake) can change the code at will.
Another interesting analogy - since there are no parent figures for Hive, the folks who are theoretically in that position (the witnesses) are largely silent on most of these topics, are actively persecuting users, or are speaking out - and far from the top 20 because of it.
Nope, not recommending anything like any of that - don't know where you could possibly have gotten that.
Nice attempt at victimizing yourself though.
Rumors? Pulling rug? You're talking about something unrelated to my recommendation.
No, I'm saying that's the only way to save Hive - to keep the focus off Hive and the asshole's who run it.
I have for a long time.
Nothing, because I will not be using L2 tokens either. I am not adding to Hive any more.
"Handed to me" - your bootlicking is hilarious. I've been curating, organizing, promoting, educating, and creating content for almost 6 years.
As I've made clear many times, the downvoting/rewards are not my problem with Hive - they are a symptom of the problems with hive - Centralization, no shared values, and a broken model: dPoS.
Kenny. I'm not going to sit here and argue with you or put up with your spin and talk in circles.
I'm not interested in what you're talking about. At all. NO. Not interested. You can sit here and insult people all you want and enjoy this tantrum you've been having for weeks now. I don't want any part of it.
The only asshole trying to run things around here, is you. You can shove that arrogance of yours up your ass. Laugh at me and mock me all you want. It slides right off.
Literally no point in listening to anyone who only sticks around to say they're leaving; won't be around to help clean up the mess they made if they get their way.
Acting like a big shot and champion of the people yet the reality is you go from this:
Sitting there collecting auto votes to the tune of 27259 HP (source) from virtually no audience for half a decade, easily placing you in the top 360 earners of all time somehow like some statistical anomaly. All while operating @tribesteemup utilizing a generous delegation from a whale, which manages to extract a whopping 225120 HP (source), that you're now funneling into https://peakd.com/@kennysgaminglife/wallet to what? Feed a Splinterlands gambling addiction of sorts? I don't know. I just see the money flying out the door.
All this massive downward spiral, completely destroying yourself and the community built around your curation guild front, over a few downvotes that you freaked out about one day.
I don't know where your head is at bro, but your behavior is hard to watch. And I hate it that I can I see right through you.
I've been here just as long as you. Been downvoted. I've seen a lot of freakouts and meltdowns. Seen a lot of selfishness and plenty of fakes. And I've also seen a lot of folks bounce back after a having a bad day. But you're pointing your finger at everyone and everything, except yourself. This is hard to watch, but I can't help you. You were inconvenienced and now your 'solution' is take it all away, from everyone. This is fucking bonkers.
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This already exists. Hive Engine developed an option a while ago to disregard L1 content monetization settings (payment declined) and downvotes while still issuing whatever token. https://github.com/hive-engine/steemsmartcontracts/pull/125
Hive isn't here for everyone to get paid how they want with zero disagreement. Censoring those who don't like something by removing their ability to interact is something you can find virtually everywhere else. It has no place on Hive. But like I said, there's an exact solution from Hive Engine that you're looking for.
So how do you turn off the comment rewards in Hive?
Dont get into a convo with this perv
Wait for the dossier to see what you're talking with.
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Looks like you got it.
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Listen fucktard... This is not your chain
Most informative comment on this post, but had to read to the bottom to find it. Fixing that.