20%, 17%, 15%... Boom! .:. Late Night Blogging
Lately, there has been a lot of discussion about the HBD APR changing and I have noticed a lot of heated discussions about the topic... So, I would like to throw some of my opinions about this topic... I know that my opinion isn't important for some "big heads" here, but some of my followers and friends could be interested... I'm not searching the war friends or enemies by creating this post, but rather sharing a view and trying to "enrich" the point of view...
The most important thing before saying anything is to explain my situation regarding HIVE (HivePower) and HBD... I own both, but I do have more HivePower... I would like to live from my HBD savings, but I believe more in crypto than in fiat which is the reason why I have more HP... and I do count HBD as fiat... If HBD savings APR goes down, my "earnings" will be hit too... So, I don't have a financial "incentive" to lower the HBD APR and my thoughts are always turned towards long-term stability and slow growth...
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I have shared some of my views in the comment sections of posts that were discussing about the topic and I will just repeat some of them here... Also, reading posts with different/opposite views helped me a lot to understand both sides and to learn something new, which is always nice to do!
For those who aren't on HIVE for a longer time, the HBD savings APR wasn't always 20%... It was much, much more... It was at 3% for a long time, in times when we had HIVE at ATH, and when we went over a $1 multiple times...
The APR jumped from 3% to 20% led by the idea of other projects that were offering similar APRs at that time... One of them was LUNA and their "(un)stable" token UST, which probably everyone knows how it finished... To not be a "general after the war" and playing a smartass, that idea wasn't bad AT THAT TIME... To attract the eyes of investors to HIVE... The point of saying this is that 20% APR isn't something that is set in stone and the magic number given by Gods...
Which leads to the next point... The idea of HBD savings APR was to make it flexible and easy to adapt to the current market conditions... It was "projected" to be dynamic, to be changed up and down... That's probably the reason why it's not coded directly in the blockchain and doesn't need a hard fork... So, what looks like something variable, turned into something that is carved in the stone... Speaking of fixed rates, how are your inflation numbers in your country? Always the same? Or your interests on your mortgage?
and a bit more about some comments that can be seen around
- "HIVE will drop in price if we lower HBD APR"
Someone mentioned that ALL investors that CAME to HIVE (btw. you can check them on the Hivebuzz website, sort by "HBD savings")... I like to poke around crypto and check "offers on the markets", but I didn't find too many stablecoins APRs over 10-12% lately...
Investors don't have where else to go... maybe some others offer 12-15%, but those chains are backed by nothing, while here, HBD investors are backed by HIVE creators and curators... Don't forget that... It's not the other way around... as sometimes it looks like that...
- "There is no comeback once we change the APR"
Not true... HBD savings APR went from 3% to 20% and it wasn't that firey back then... Hmmm... When I look back, I can't remember that we had a big discussion about that at all... It happened so fast, that we peasants, didn't have time to say our opinion... On the other side, lowering from 20% to 15% created a huge discussion... From my point of view, we are maturing a bit more as we discuss important things... Which is positive!
Also, the thing with "signaling the APR" by witnesses is a nice opportunity for everyone interested to check their witness votes and vote accordingly... If you want 20%, vote for those who support it, if you like 15% for those, etc... Of course, if all this HBD APR is THAT important to you that can "balance out" the weight of your vote...
On the other side, this is a nice moment to see which witnesses have the spine to say their opinion and stay behind it... Another great opportunity to "know better your witnesses" 🙂...
Having these discussions on HIVE means that the level of decentralization is on a higher level than it was before... It is not perfect and we have a lot more time to pass to get that HIVE better distributed, but there are slow movements... If we wouldn't have these discussions I would be much more worried...
I could probably write about these things a lot more, but I don't want to lose the point... In the end, despite DPOS isn't a perfect consensus mechanism, don't forget that every time we make a vote for something on this chain, you vote with your stake, in HivePower...
The point is that you can't be just HBD maxi or HivePower maxi... If you want to keep (or change) the APR percentage, people who have the most HivePower will decide (isn't that ironic? 🙂)... HivePower is the machine that runs this blockchain and that's the fact...
Maybe I'm stupid, but I do believe in decentralization... Also, I do understand that with decentralization, we (should) lose that 1 leader to rule us all, and I'm fine with that... And I know that with every day that passes, HIVE is a bit more decentralized... "The rest" has more stake than the few... If someone tries to change that, I will defend it by all means!
In the end, I would say one thing more... This is MY opinion and it can be (and probably is) different to yours and that's fine... 🙂 I saw some people bringing these discussions on the "personal level" which has no sense... We all want the best for HIVE, but we have different opinions how to do it...
Thank you for your time,
~ph~
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It certainly is good that some witnesses raised this topic and I think now is a good a time as any to adjust the HBD rate. I am not sure why we need a token pegged to a fiat currency that has unlimited inflation and its value decreases each year, but it sure makes sense to keep the % dynamic and adjust to market conditions.
I still have some spare witness votes, but wait for more witnesses to lower their HBD %.
It's nice to have discussions about things that are important for the future of HIVE... We can understand different views, discover some new stuff that we didn't know, and understand better each other...
When we draw the line, people will decide how would they like to proceed... I know that people think that witnesses are those who decide, but we can't forget that WE put them in those positions, and WE can remove them from there too... They give their options and you vote...
I'm not a big fan of DPOS, but the "rules of the game" are like that and I have to adapt if I want to play...
Out of interest, what do you not like about DPOS? It seems a pretty great feature so far as I can see.
I don't like "delegating" my vote to someone else... Would rather like to vote directly with my stake...
Tbh, I don't like parliaments and politicians either... Probably because DPOS reminds me of them, that's why I don't like it... lol... 😃
Yes, that makes sense.
I think having a stablecoin tied to fiat and the dollar is a good thing, but changing the APR now seems like a waste. It would make a lot of people give up on HBD and HBD would just be what it was in the past (just a way to get Hive). I have been seeing some progress on getting HBD mainstream in places like Sucre and just having that option made Hive appealing to them. I just think that the liquidity for HBD will drop a lot and I doubt the stablizer will make HBD that stable if the APR were to change either.
Isn't it exactly the opposite nowadays? That people are buying HIVE to go into HBD? 🙂
To be honest, I don't mind if it stays at 20%... I will not leave HIVE or do some other stupid thing... But, I bet that the world wouldn't explode if the HBD APR goes to, for example, 17-18%... Nor HIVE would go to zero... There was HIVE before the 20% and there will be HIVE after, too (and HBD too)...
Btw. I would strongly suggest you check the Hivebuzz HBD savings rich list and try to find some names that you DON'T KNOW... as those are "new investors" attracted outside our ecosystem...
I think a yearly %20 interest payout for an instrument, which is almost equal to $1, is a great invesment opportunity for us. However, even if the interest rate of it is decreased, I think to convert them to HIVE and then power up so that I can increase my curation rewards. This is another opportunity ;)
I agree that it is a great instrument... The point of this post is that it's not something that is "set in stone"... Now that I think about it, the 20% APR on HBD is the ONLY thing that is FIXED on HIVE... lol... HivePower APR is dynamic, curation rewards are dynamic...
Why would it be so bad to have variable APR on HBD? The whole world is based on variable interest rates...
To avoid risk :)
Im just started to see these posts. I’m guessing it stays at 20% for now. I’m going to have to dig in and read the pros and cons for now. I’m usually lean in line with what khal says. He does way more research than me.
!PIZZA. thanks for the post.
It's always good to check different/opposite points of view... That's when we learn the most... 😉
Thanks for checking out the post!
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I think the biggest issue I have is that the proposed change is so big, and I've seen no data-driven reason for it. If the proposal was to drop it 1-2%, then give it some time to see if it had the desired effect (whatever that is), I'd be far more comfortable. Dropping it by 8% just feels like a panic reaction.
I think that the initial "suggestions" by witnesses were more like a starting point for "testing the waters"... I doubt that we will have a drop of more than 4-5% (if we have it at all)
I still stand by my past opinion
The APR should be gradually lowered.
Not in one fell swoop or raise it any higher as there is already too much of a problem being at 20%.
That is my opinion
Aún me apoyo de mi opinión pasada
Debería de bajar gradualmente el APR
No de un plumazo ni subirlo más ya hay mucho problema al estar en 20%
Esa es mi opinión
We will see if some other witnesses will come out with their opinions and suggestions... I saw maybe 3-4 saying their thoughts about the matter... Rest is very quiet...
It is great to read different points of view, if for no other reason than to try and find the valid reasons for doing whatever it is that the powers to be decide will be done.
Good governance gets things talked about, just as long as things don't get personal which happens with recent DHF governance.
I failed to see how 20% was sustainable and then bam all the people who said that were shot down in Twitter last year. So trying to find the reasons for it being lowered now are interesting.
It is what it is and I treated the 20% as a bonus. Let's be honest even 12% is fluffing high.
Will some Hive evaporate off-chain? A little perhaps. Overall I think people think our chain is actually bigger than it really is in the cryptoverse.
Just as long as governance does not cause chain implosion like some other chains!
Anyway good late night reading and what will be will be!
Thank you for your kind words about the LNB (Late Night Blogging 😃)!
People tend to overreact to these things when there is no reason to do it with that much emotions... It's not a black-and-white situation, and it will turn out in a greyish solution... As I said in the post, I will always be on the "long-term vision" and 10-15% sounds better than 20% for the long term...
And of course, I'm working on having a more powerful vote in the HIVE governance by accumulating HivePower... That's the only thing how can we influence in decision making on HIVE...
The discussion is important and the changes will impact the HIVE economy a lot. Yes, I ever see HBD savings below 20% APR too. You really have a point for this and it gives me a lot of information 👍
Well, I prefer to keep it in HP for more choices than HBD tbh 🤔.
HP is flexible to delegate for more than 1 person. if I want to focus on curating, I just undelegate all.
The cons of course undelegating HP takes a long time and its price is based on HIVE price which is unstable. In my viewpoint, it's beneficial to me to think of it as a very long investment.
HBD is just for HBD savings for now. I don't have any other things that I can pay with HBD. The pros are high APR and its price around 1 dollar. It just makes me want to take it whenever I want. 🤣
Well, it's just my nature. 😛
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Both tokens on HIVE have their use, for sure... But, it is obvious that we have to balance them out and make them more equal... That's kind of a trigger for all these discussions...
Great thoughts on this matter Zoltan, and as we have discussed before I do think it should be lowered, and personally I think it should be equal to the APR for HP curation rewards plus HP inflation, so around 11% to 12%, it removes the pressure on Hive, and if lowered more than that there will be pressure in the other direction instead, and mostly through printing Hive with conversion (amounts are too big for the internal market so therefore conversion) which also puts pressure on Hive as well, so tokenomics wise I think that having the APR's equal is the best long term.
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I agree with you that the HBD-HivePower is "unbalanced" at the moment... 20% APR on HBD savings was rather an experiment of how it would affect other variables in the system... And it does that pretty aggressively... It is a main competitor with HIVE, but also with H-E tokens, too... I know that many tokens are garbage, but not all, of course... HBD was competing with other stable coins in the crypto markets, but it didn't have such a positive impact on internal markets...
Yeah, let's hope it will get balanced.
!PIZZA
You give a valid point. Because frankly, I don't even remember when the APR was raised to 20% since there were not many discussions back then, I knew it when there were many hivean setting up goals of raising their HBD savings.
I think now if they decided to put it into 15% APR are still in a very good spot, still much higher than the initial APR before that big increase.
Now I think it is time to review the HBD goal that we have set, given the price of Hive and also the HBD APR has changed. : )
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! help(no space) to get help on Hive. InfoAgree with you on this... 15% is still a super high APR for a stablecoin, and very competitive with any other crypto project... But, we should do better marketing and let people know about it!
It has NOT changed yet... It is still an ongoing discussion about pros and cons... Maybe it will not be changed at all...
I think one of the best things that this whole HBD savings APR discussion has brought is that a lot of people who had no idea are now becoming somewhat aware of the governance issue and how important Hive Power is if we want to have a say in the important issues happening on the Blockchain. Many people don't even vote for witnesses so this is very positive.
And regardless of my opinion or what may suit me, which in the end is the best for Hive because I bet on its future and strengthening, 15% APR even 12% is still very attractive for a stablecoin.
You NAILED it with your comment! It did raise awareness about the governance and the importance of HivePower... The last time that I saw people talking about revising their witness votes was when we were fighting against the JS takeover...
I would like to see expiring witness (and even proposals) votes lowered to 3-6 months... We need more active participants in governance! And more dialogues like this one!
I think the HBD rate should be around 10% per annum. This is comparable to curatorial income from HIVE POWER. It is easier for a person to make a choice between HBD and HIVE in a bullish or bearish market.
The thing is that people see this as a competition between HBD and HIVE (HivePower), while they should work for the same goal... The logical solution would be to keep them on a similar APR and avoid the "competition"...
Actually to my best understanding, I will love the Apr to still remain at 20%
We will see what happens... Everyone can share their opinion on HIVE...
!BEER
in my opinion, it was supposed to happen earlier 😊. If the APR is gonna remain from 12 to 15 % it is really a good deal in my opinion. It is a really big deal to give 20% APR in a stablecoin. When the market was bullish I saw the staking on some crypto was giving around 12 to 13 % now it is at less than 3 %. and HBD is still giving 20 % APR which is really insacene.
Yeah, I was also exploring other options for stablecoin "staking" and earning a yield and it is around 3-5% at the moment... And those 5% can be found on some risky projects, while our 20% on Hive has a very low risk...
Everything over 8-10% is a super-deal for a stablecoin!
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They are thinking to lower the apr to 12%.
Where did you get that information? I didn't hear that they made a consensus about the exact percentage...
You mentioned that Hive will drop in price if we lower HBD APR
Do you mean there is a way that the APR affects the price of Hive
I didn't say that... Nobody knows how the price of HIVE will react in that case... Everyone is just guessing what could happen...
I am not in support of lowering the APR, at least in the bear market. Let's where they take us from here.
We can discuss it, but in the end, it will be the decision of witnesses...
Shouldn't it be a community decision?
It should be, but it is not a proposal that you can directly vote for what you want... You vote for witnesses that you support and they can listen, or not...
I am currently supported only those who are in favour of not lowering the APR.
Great post, very well written without generating polemic!
Thank you for your kind comment! I didn't have to make more polemic than it's already... lol... Just threw some stuff that I saw and transferred to others... ;)